What Fifth Wheel Would We Buy Today?

That's a question we get asked a lot.  What fifth wheel would we buy today?

The question infers "What NEW fifth wheel would we buy today?" with the hope we will reveal a particular make and model. Unfortunately, we just can't answer that question.  For those that want us to say exactly what new make and model we would buy, this will be a very unsatisfying Journal post.  :)

• First of all, we haven't done the in-depth research that we would do with ten years more knowledge than we had when we started because, simply, we don't have the need for another unit at this point.
• Second, in the rigs we've walked through, we haven't seen anything we like better than what we have now considering the modifications and upgrades we've made.
• Third, we are asked that question from different people that have completely different budgets in mind, so it would require several different answers in different price ranges.  
• Fourth, knowing what we know now, it is more likely we would buy a used unit and upgrade/renovate to our satisfaction to get the features we want and be able to pay cash.

But we still want to provide some information, opinions, and scenarios that will hopefully help a wide cross-section of our audience that is looking at fifth wheels or will be in the future.  First, we have to set out some parameters that will be our guide in each scenario assuming we were looking to replace our current fifth wheel.

1. We would be looking at a fifth wheel designed to be moved often (designed for travel rather than one that would be placed upon a lot and either never moved or just moved once or twice a year).
2. We would be looking at a fifth wheel built well enough that we could expect it to last ten to twenty years under full-time use.
3. We would be looking at a fifth wheel in the 35- 40 foot range for total length (quoted fifth wheel lengths are often less than actual full exterior length); We would want enough living and storage space that would be both comfortable for traveling (including large holding tanks for boondocking) and for living in at some future time on a lot somewhere.
4. We would be looking for a fifth wheel that is light enough to be within the weight ratings of a at least a 1-ton dually diesel pick-up truck (Ford, Chevy/GM, or Dodge).
5. We would be looking for a fifth wheel that would be considered a "four season" rig that includes dual pane windows.
6. We would be looking for a fifth wheel with at least 3,000 lbs. of cargo carrying capacity (or at least the ability to to upgrade the cargo carrying capacity to at least 3,000 lbs.). 
7. We would NOT be looking for a toy hauler (Toy haulers, therefore, are not part of this discussion). 

NOTE:  Our 2006 Keystone Cambridge fifth wheel is a 358RLS model that is 39'3" long (front cap to rear ladder), was $60,000 at time of purchase in 2005 ($69,000 after adding a 5500 watt propane generator, slideout toppers, and vent covers), and had only 2,100 pounds of cargo carrying capacity BEFORE the generator and slideout toppers were added (and before we knew any better), and we were 1,200 pounds overweight as soon as we loaded it (thus our later upgrades of tires, wheels, brakes & suspension). 

 

Now, let's look at our different scenarios with their own set of assumptions.

Scenario #1 - Our current reality IF we suddenly just got tired of our Keystone Cambridge

Assumptions:

1. We would NOT finance.
2. We could get $30,000 - $40,000 for our current rig through private sale (current sales prices show anywhere between $25,000 - $40,000, and with our upgrades I'm pretty sure we'd be at the upper end, if not higher).
3. We would have about $30,000 cash to add to any sale proceeds to pay cash for a new rig OR to purchase and upgrade a used rig.

Let's just go ahead and get this out of the way.  I don't think we could buy a new fifth wheel that is as nice as what we have now with the features that we have, and that we value, for $60,000 - $70,000.  IF we bought a new rig in that price range, we would likely want to add several thousand dollars more in upgrades.

So, we would most likely buy a used, high quality fifth wheel in the $30,000 - $40,000 range and then, over time, make the same modifications to it that we have made to our Keystone Cambridge.

In fact, there is a good chance we would buy another Cambridge 358RLS since it's a well-built unit, we like the floorplan, we know the issues, and we know the exact modifications we would make and the costs of those modifications.  Of course, if we found something newer in that price range that we liked better, we would certainly go that route.  

Now, by "high quality" fifth wheel, I mean that in the most subjective sense.  I don't know that much about differences in frames, wall construction, insulation, etc., and we've never delved into the minutia of all that as some people do, but we do know good quality when we see it in person.  And, in general, good quality comes in packages that are heavier - heavier chassis and heavier "box" construction.   However, with that said, we wouldn't want to go too heavy, so we would want to stay somewhere in the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) range of 16,000 - 20,000 pounds.  

No matter what used unit we might buy, we would immediately upgrade as follows:

• MORryde Independent Suspension
• Disc Brakes
• Goodyear G114 215/75R17.5 tires;  Load Range H, 4,805 lb capacity at 125 psi
• 17.5-inch wheels with 4,850 lb capacity
• MORryde rubber pin box (depending on what unit comes with)
• Add SurgeGuard or Progessive Industries whole home surge and voltage protection
• Transfer electrical/solar equipment: Lifeline AGM Batteries (600 amp hours), Xantrex 3000-watt Inverter, 400 watts of solar panels, solar controller, cabling (would likely add another 200 watts of solar panels)
• Install LED lighting throughout

That could all be done for $8,000 - $10,000.

In the next few months (or maybe even over a few years as cash flow allowed) we would:

• Replace the flooring
• Put on FlexArmor roof
• Have National RV Refrigeration install a new cooling unit in the refrigerator OR install a residential refrigerator
• Replace awnings and slideout toppers
• Get rig painted (full body paint)
• Install Winegard Trav'ler Automatic Rooftop Satellite TV Antenna 
• Have Suncoast Designers replace the seals in all the dual pane windows

That's a good $25,000 - $30,000 of additional investment, but we could do it piecemeal over time addressing the most pressing issues first (most likely starting with the roof) and completing the rest as funds were available (assuming they would be).  If we had zero income coming in, we could live without all of the items immediately above.

NOTE:  All of the items in both of the bullet-point sections above are upgrades we've made to our Keystone Cambridge (although at less-than-full-retail pricing).

So, that's what we would do today in our current situation.  However, I know that's not what most people are looking for when they ask us "What Fifth Wheel Would You Buy Today?", so let's move on to Scenario #2.

 

Scenario #2 - If we were starting as full-time RVers today knowing what we know now

Assumptions:

1. We would NOT finance, BUT let's assume we would have enough funds from the sale of a house to make the purchase.
2. Let's say we would buy new (most likely, knowing what we know now, we would buy used - See Scenario #1 - but let's assume new for this Scenario)
3. Our perception is that we could not buy a new, acceptable, long-lasting, full-featured, 35 - 40 foot fifth wheel for under $60,000.
4. We would have a hard time spending over $100,000 for a fifth wheel, so our range would be $60,000 to $100,000. 

If money were no object OR we would be willing to finance, we would certainly look at designing our own fifth wheel and having it completely custom built by one of these four manufacturers (after some mind-numbing research and price negotiation):

• Continental Coach by Forks RV
• New Horizons
• Space Craft
• Recreation By Design

We'll look at what we would want in a custom unit as part of our Scenario #3 below.

The next tier of fifth wheels built for full-time living seems to be the following which allow some customization, but not to the extent of the four above.  These have MSRPs from $125,000 up to about $185,000.  Of course MSRPs aren't "real" sales prices as most of us know that new fifth wheels are sold at 15 - 30% off MSRP (sometimes more if the unit has been sitting a long time), but they help us in categorizing the different manufacturers.

• DRV Suites
• Augusta RV (Luxe Model)
• Redwood RV, a division of CrossRoads RV
• Lifestyle Luxury RV (Lifestyle Model); (Update:  Parent company Evergreen RV went out of business June 2016, so cross this one off)

Of course, those manufacturers also have models in the $100,000 - $125,000 MSRP range as well.  BUT, in the higher price ranges of the above models, it is certainly possible to get a fully custom-built unit for similar pricing.

Just below that tier would be these models with MSRPs more in the $115,000 t0 $135,000 range for full-time type models (there are also lower priced versions of these models):

• Heartland Landmark
• Jayco Designer
• CrossRoads Carriage
• Forest River Cardinal

Then the field opens up greatly in the $100,000 - $115,000 MSRP range where it is very likely to actually buy the units at under $100,000 (again, many of the manufacturers above also have entries in this range, so I'm not repeating them here).

• Keystone RV "Luxury" Fifth Wheels (Alpine, Big Sky, & Montana Models)
• Jacyco Pinnacle
• Forest River Riverstone & Cedar Creek
• Grand Design Solitude
• Winnebago Destination
• Lifestyle Luxury (Alpha Gold Model); (Update:  Parent company Evergreen RV went out of business June 2016, so cross this one off as well)
• Augusta RV (Ambition Model)

Below $100,000 there are so many choices it would take too much time to list them all.

But for full-time living, as mentioned before, we probably wouldn't look at new units with an MSRP under $75,000 and I doubt we would pay under $60,000, as that's sort of our perceived bottom threshold for a unit we feel would hold up to full-time living over at least ten years. On the other end of our scale, I'd have a really, really hard time paying over $100,000 for a fifth wheel, but that's just me and my "value meter" talking.  :)

You can find new units from all the manufacturers above (except for maybe the truly custom companies) in that $60,000 - $100,000 price range.  Here are additional manufacturers/models that fit the bill in that price range.

• Vanleigh RV (a fairly new entrant into the fifth wheel market; started by the owners of Tiffin Motorhomes)
• Heartland Bighorn & Big Country (good value in these fifth wheels)
• Primetime
• Dutchman Denali
• Highland Ridge (Open Range fifth wheels)
• KZ
• Shasta Phoenix
• Coachmen                                      

I'm sure there are others.

 

If we had the funds to pay cash now AND we were set on buying a new fifth wheel, we would start at the top of the manufacturer list and work our way down until we found the best built unit we could find with most of the features we desire in a 35 - 40 foot trailer with a GVWR of less than 20,000 pounds, and the most cargo carrying capacity available, for under $100,000.

A big problem we are seeing in the upscale, full-time living fifth wheels is that they don't have nearly enough cargo carrying capacity.  There are lots of beautiful fifth wheels with limited cargo carrying capacity that are perfect for sitting on a lot for seasonal or full-time living (cargo carrying capacity only matters while it's being towed).  But most full-timers we deal with intend to travel quite a bit, and it is commonly reported that full-timing couples will carry about 3,000 lbs of stuff.  That seems like a lot, but when you start adding up all the clothes, all the food and drinks, all the accessories, all the other stuff that is part of our lives, and any upgrades, it's pretty easy to get to 3,000 lbs.  And if you add extra batteries, an inverter, a generator, solar panels, a washer/dryer, or other such lifestyle enhancement equipment, even 3,000 lbs isn't enough cargo carrying capacity.  Remember, cargo carrying capacity is immediately reduced by the weight of anything you add to the RV after it leaves the manufacturer.

I would like to have about 4,000 lbs of cargo carrying capacity, but you just don't find it in the larger, heavier fifth wheels.  You can find it in a few lighter, less expensive fifth wheels, but then you have to decide if the construction is solid enough for full-time living (i.e. Is the great cargo carrying capacity due to light weight, cheap materials in the construction of the box that sits on the chassis?  Maybe, maybe not, but I would have to look really closely at how everything is put together).

Now, with that said, had we followed our own advice, we wouldn't have the unit we have now - we NEVER would have purchased our Cambridge based on the terrible 2,100 pounds of cargo carrying capacity considering what we know now.  I guess what I'm trying to say is cargo carrying capacity specs alone can eliminate a LOT of fifth wheels from consideration for full-time living if you stick to hard and fast rules.  But, perhaps the carrying capacity can be improved or perhaps you can be more conscious of the weight you add to the unit or perhaps the effects of overload on the frame can be mitigated by the proper choice of suspension, pin box, hitch, and other choices in the total package.  The important thing is to understand weight ratings, the potential effects of exceeding them, and that you might have to learn how to manage potential overloads for maximum safety and to reduce the effects of long-term wear and tear.

 

So, that's how we would go through the process.  A major limiting factor would be our budget, so we would eliminate all units outside of our maximum price range after seeing what we could negotiate into our price range.  Don't just assume you can't get a unit you want - you might be surprised by the wiggle room on price.  :)

But, as we tell our audience in our "Buying An RV" seminar, it usually comes down to your "intended use" of the RV AND your wallet.  It doesn't really matter what you want or what is the best, it is what you can afford and what is the "best for you".  If you can't afford a higher end unit, go with what you can afford.  It may work out perfectly for you as it has for thousands of others, but you also have to be aware that the lower priced units simply aren't built for full-time use so you may have more repairs or may have to put in more money over the long haul to make it last longer.  But that's better than depleting your nest egg completely all at once on something more expensive that is still going to need a certain amount of repairs and tweaks.

You know, when we started and people talked about full-timing fifth wheels, nobody mentioned Keystone.  They had the best-selling fifth wheel - Montana - for several years running, but no one considered them as full-timing rigs (although there are several full-timers in them).  Everyone mentioned Teton Homes, NuWa, Travel Supreme, Carriage, and Excel as high quality units built for full-timing (which they are).  But, every single one of those manufacturers has gone out of business, so take all the recommendations about makes and models with a grain of salt and find what will work best for you financially and for the way you want to live life on the road.

Heck, it may be best to purchase a lower priced unit and then keep trading it every few years.  Other than the hassle of moving, perhaps what is best for you and your particular financial situation is to buy a $30,000 fifth wheel, and then trade it in on another $30,000 fifth wheel after a few years, and then maybe even do it again.  In the long run, you may end up spending a lot less over several years but still have the same level of enjoyment from the lifestyle.

In conclusion of this "scenario" about what we would buy, we would want the best combination we could find of a unit built for travel, built for long-term full-time living, and that would be comfortable for stationary living once we decide we are done with traveling.  Because it has to be built for travel AND hold pretty much everything we own including the stuff that helps make our lives more enjoyable, it would have to have significant cargo carrying capacity (or at least have the capability of being upgraded to carry more).  And it would have to have as many of the features that we would want in a custom unit (See Scenario #3 below) as possible, while still being under $100,000.  That, my friends, is no small task.  :)

 

Scenario #3 - If we had the funds to design our own fifth wheel with everything we wanted

If we were in the market for a new fifth wheel and money were no object, we would want:

• MORryde Independent Suspension
• Disc Brakes
• Goodyear G114 215/75R17.5 tires;  Load Range H, 4,805 lb capacity at 125 psi
• 17.5-inch wheels with 4,850 lb capacity
• Dual pane, tinted windows (prefer traditional framed windows, NOT frameless, but not a deal breaker)
• Multiple slide-outs (but preferably not with a full-wall slide as the overall weight would make us nervous)
• Individual slide-out controls
• Full body paint
• MORryde Rubber Pin Box (softens the back and forward motion on the hitch)
• Traditional front bedroom, mid-kitchen, rear living area floorplan)
• Split Bath (shower on one side, toilet and sink on the other)
• Lots of counter space in the kitchen (island or peninsula floorplan)
• Huge pantry
• Large kitchen cabinets for storage of crockpot, toaster oven, blender, and other big kitchen items
• Solid cabinets and drawers with quality hardware
• Colored kitchen sink (definitely not white; had it, hated it, replaced it)
• Light-Colored Interior Wood (i.e. oak or similar)
• Large pass-through storage in the "basement" (main compartment)
• Built-in propane generator (not a deal breaker as we could get by fine with a portable)
• All LED lighting
• Washer/Dryer Connections but NOT in main clothes closet (not necessarily the washer/dryer, but the ability to add later)
• Automatic Leveling System (don't have it now and it's not a deal breaker)
• Residential Refrigerator (don't have one now and it's not a deal breaker)
• Dishwasher (don't have one now and it's not a deal breaker)
• Two Air Conditioners with Ducted Air (only have one now, so two is not a deal breaker)
• Truma AquaGo instant water heater (have one and love it, but not a deal breaker)
• Minimum 75 gallon fresh water holding tank (currently have 100 gallon tank)
• Minimum 75 gallon gray water holding tank (currently have two 45 gallon tanks)
• Minimum 45 gallon black water holding tank (currently have 45 gallon tank)
• Tank heaters (not a deal breaker)
• Hard-wired SurgeGuard or Progressive Industries surge and voltage protection (after market installation okay)
• Slideout Toppers (although can be noisy in the wind, I still think the overall pros outweigh the cons)
• Electric Main Awning
• Shoe storage at the door (maybe a trap door in the floor or some other solution)
• Broom closet for vacuum cleaner, brooms, mops, and cleaning supplies
• King size bed (with good three-side access and a place to sit books, Kindles, glasses, TV remote, etc.)
• Drawer storage under bed
• Electric fireplace (not a deal breaker)
• Luxury vinyl tile flooring and commercial carpet
• Stand alone dinette (with leaf for expansion)
• Heating & cooling ducted into toilet room
• Fantastic fans
• Ceiling fan in living area
• Frosted or textured shower enclosure (NO clear glass that is hard to keep clean)
• Sufficient work space for printer, office supplies, and file storage
• Storage compartment doors that don't require two hands to open (prefer doors that swing out rather than up)
• Separate exterior compartment specifically for sewer hoses, connectors, etc. 
• Accessible plumbing manifold (have one now)
• Easy access to breakers and fuses
• Convenient sliding access panel in "basement" compartment for access to hidden electrical and plumbing (have now)
• Flat-screen TVs with the latest technology
• Winegard Trav'ler Automatic Rooftop Satellite TV Antenna
• Pre-wired for solar as long as they put in our exact requirements for cabling
• AGM deep cycle batteries with minimum of 400 amp hours of battery capacity, but preferably with 600 amp hours
• High quality sine wave inverter - minimum 2,000 watts, but prefer 3,000 watts
• Twelve volt plugs in living area, bedroom, and "basement"
• SeeLevel II tank level sensors and monitors (not a deal breaker)
• Exterior lighted convenience center similar to what we have now (tank valves, cable/satellite hook-up, fresh water connection, gravity fill, power fill valve, battery disconnect, winterizing valves, black tank flush connection, 20-amp outlet, but leave out exterior shower)
• Separate compartment housing electrical connection and 50-amp cord and adapters (we have now)
• Receiver hitch on rear to accommodate bike rack (don't have now and not a deal breaker)
• Adequate interior and exterior storage (if we didn't carry rally supplies, our current storage would be way more than enough)
• Minimum 3,000 lbs of cargo carrying capacity AFTER everything above is installed
• Maximum of 20,000 lbs Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (we currently weigh about 19,200)
• Maximum of 40 feet total length (we are currently 39'3" and don't really want to be any longer)

Whew.  That's a long list, and I just know we'll think of ten other items after I post this.  

Linda's not sure about a convection oven.  She doesn't have enough experience with a convection oven to make the call on whether or not she'd be okay without the propane option, which she has mastered.

Sure wish we could afford that fifth wheel.  :)

 

Okay, so we're not able to tell you exactly what fifth wheel we would buy, but I hope each of our scenarios above were helpful in one way or another and that I didn't completely waste your time .... and mine.  :)

---

 

 

Comments

[Rowdy]

Hello
Well that was very informative to me Howard thanks. I have a couple questions if you would be so kind. 1. How much did it cost to upgrade to dual pane windows in your current rig. 2.Why propane generator vs Gas. 3. Why 12v plugins in the areas you spoke of and why 12v plugs or 12v outlets? thx oh and 11 days of work left woot woot!
Rowdy

[JC Webber III]

Ok, now which motorhome would you get? 8^)

-- jc

[Shawn Hall]

Awesome job Howard!

As I expressed in my private email to you when you first mentioned this entry, buying used was the right answer for us for many of the reasons you wrote about. You promised that you would cover that option and you nailed it.

Thanks again for all you do for the RV community as a whole and especially the wanna be full timers.

Shawn

[David Mason]

There is a system that you did not comment about...a macerator system. We have been in highline RVs for a long time and are now in a RV with a macerator system. After two months with that we had a gravity piping system installed to bypass the macerator. Even though the macerator remains on the rig we will not use it again unless we are in a situation where our sewage would have to go uphill. That is unlikely. We do not like the macerator system because with it we were out dumping tanks every second day rather than our accustomed once every fourth or fifth day with a gravity system. Now we are happily back to once every fourth or fifth day.

David Mason

[Tracy Perkins]

Really interesting and thanks for making it clear that it doesn't really matter as long as you are happy with what you have.

[Rush and Lola Songer]

We thank you for all your time and work. Enjoyed the info and all on what F/W's to buy. Sure wish we had known RV-Dreams before we bought our 280 RLS Cougar. Can't wait to see all in Sevierville.

[Suzie Davidson]

Terrific article. Thanks.
You say that if you were designing your perfect 5R it would be traditional front BR. My hubby is 6'7" and hits his head in front BR units. Therefore we're looking at front LR. Any reason that we should stay away from front LR?

[Howard]

Suzie,
You get whatever you feel comfortable with. :)

Some tall people prefer the front bedroom because they will mostly be sleeping there. They prefer having their headroom in the living area where they will be up and down more. But just as many prefer the front living room and rear bedroom. It's whatever is best for you. Just tour both floorplans and pretend you are living in them, and see what is most comfortable.

[Max and Paula]

Such great information, Howard--as always! We have loved our DRV, and it was the perfect full-time home for us. Since we settled down and I went back to work, we don't get to use it like we would like anymore so we're looking to do something different. Sure miss those good times. Thanks so much for getting us off to a good start with your rally in Oregon a few years ago. Appreciate both of you and all you do for this community.

[Carol Beckman]

Really well thought out post and I agree that it's impossible to name a particular brand and model without all the other considerations you mention.
Just wanted to let Linda know there's no reason to fear a convection oven. I have one and honestly I use it exactly like a regular over; I just lower the baking temp by 25deg...that's it. Nothing magical about it.
We also would add an induction cooktop and eliminate the propane oven...we don't boondock so we always stay where we have electrical hookups. Right now we use a portable induction single burner 90% of the time and enjoy the extra counter space we have by keeping the covers on the stovetop...they are made of the same material as the countertops and are level with them so you don't even realize you have a stove under them.
Keep on doing what you do...we all benefit from your knowledge and experience.
We are just celebrating the end of our first year full-timing and can't imagine a better lifestyle. We do a combo of staying in one place for several months and then taking road trips where we move every few days to a week.

[Chris Abbott]

Howard,

This is a GREAT post. Thank you very much. It has been helpful in validating some of my research to date, but also in narrowing and updating my future focus as well.

Question. You mentioned Grand Design Momentum above. Did you mean Grand Design Solitude? The Momentum line is a toy hauler which you indicated you would not consider. I believe the Solitude is Grand Design's high profile towables.

Thanks again for your assistance. We had a GREAT time at the rally and enjoyed meeting you and Linda. We made some really good friends there and continue to stay in touch with them.

Thanks,
Chris

[Howard]

Chris,
Yes, I meant Solitude. I knew I would screw something up in all those links. :) Thanks for noting it. I've made the change in the post.

[Chris Abbott]

Thx Howard. We're glad you called out the Solitude and meant the Solitude. It's a favorite of ours and your opinion means a lot to us.